Allen, it is clear that Esperanto replaces the unbridgeable gap between a native speaker and the non-native speaker with the more bridgeable, and psychologically different, gap between a spertulo and a komencanto.

However it seems clear from the evidence on the ground that the use of a national language (eg English) for international communication is not seen as such a big problem by those who need to communicate with foreigners.

It therefore seems a legitimate question as to what problem Esperanto is actually the ideal solution, or is likely to be perceived as such.

Putting it in different words - in what domain is Esperanto the killer application.

Maybe it is as an introduction to foreign language learning. Perhaps it is as a language for package holidays in countries whose language is not widely spoken outside their frontiers. It might be for purely educational purposes for teaching grammar, or even purely as a brain exercise.

I do not have the answer. But rather than promoting Esperanto as the ideal interlanguage (the solution to the language problem), we might be well advised to concentrate on defining the problem that Esperanto actually most efficiently and convincingly addresses.

Edit: Why is it that the London Esperanto Club appears to be in terminal decline, when there are some 200-300 different languages spoken in London, yet Esperanto Clubs in more monolingual cities outside the UK in relatively good health?

Oijos:And with alta nivelo you should be able to write your openings in the Esperanto section.

+1

sudanglo:Putting it in different words - in what domain is Esperanto the killer application.

To me this is in getting to know cool people and close friends which I without Esperanto never met.

I do not have the answer. But rather than promoting Esperanto as the ideal interlanguage (the solution to the language problem), we might be well advised to concentrate on defining the problem that Esperanto actually most efficiently and convincingly addresses.

That's what I am actually trying to do. My way of "promoting" Esperanto is just to tell people about cool stuff I am doing in my Esperanto life.

Why are you posting this in the English section. Isn't this a topic for all esperanto speakers and not only for the english speaking ones?

It might be, Johmue, that promoting Esperanto as a medium through which to achieve other goals (than solving the language problem) is the way to go. The question then is what goals.

By the way on the complaint that I have not posted this topic in the Esperanto section, I would point out in my defence that I have most vigorously argued in the past that respondents should be allowed to reply in Esperanto in the English Forum.

All national forums should in my view allow both Esperanto and the relevant national language to facilitate the most productive and lively discussion.

Forum members not uncommonly have a reading knowledge of national languages other than their own, though the use of the national language for reply may be an imposition, and inhibit response. This embargo on the use of Esperanto in national forums denies the topics valuable contributions and an international perspective.

It isn't a solution for the administrator to whinge about supplying a translation as, if the poster could readily supply a translation, then he/she could have posted in the national language anyway.

In the "killer app" line of thought I would have to say we should focus on early foreign language training. I believe there was a great TED talk (possibly TEDx) where someone was arguing for the use of Esperanto as a first foreign language. In this case we have real studies proving its effectiveness not only in quicker learning of Esperanto than a foreign language, but we also have evidence that having learned some Esperanto speeds the learning of a foreign language.

IMHO if we were able to get an EO training program for elementary/primary school students the fina venko would not only be possible, it would be practically guaranteed. If everyone speaks elementary EO then it's just common sense that it would be used as originally intended by a significant amount of the population.

But the vast majority of humanity is incredibly stubborn and immune to logic and science unless the findings back their commonly held views/beliefs, and this will probably never happen.

sudanglo:By the way on the complaint that I have not posted this topic in the Esperanto section, I would point out in my defence that I have most vigorously argued in the past that respondents should be allowed to reply in Esperanto in the English Forum.

All national forums should in my view allow both Esperanto and the relevant national language to facilitate the most productive and lively discussion.

Disclaimer - I really don't care whether you post this particular topic here or in the Esperanto forums. I just wanted to note that your "defence" of posting here is a lame pretext for complaining about the forum's language policy. I'm not going to get into another debate with you on the forum's language policy because I think we already understand one another perfectly and yet disagree. But if you really cared to hear opinions from people who don't read the English forum, you could have started the same conversation in the Esperanto forums in a parallel thread. Lots of posters, including myself, have done that when they wanted to get opinions from more than one population. I invite you to do so if you feel like you want to get some more diverse views.

sudanglo:However it seems clear from the evidence on the ground that the use of a national language (eg English) for international communication is not seen as such a big problem by those who need to communicate with foreigners.

I communicated (or tried to) today with Nepalese man who spoke very fluent English. I understood about 40 %. His pronunciation was such, that I couldn't understand many words that I really know. Also he didn't understand me, because I couldn't find words (seems I'm only a passive knower of English) when I needed them. When I elpensis some circumlocutions, he didn't understand, because I couldn't pronounce them understandably enough. English is like written code to me. My personal experience has shown to me, that effective communication is impossible with other than native BBC English or American standard English speakers. So, I see a big problem. It would be solved if all would get the sounds to head when they are young enough. ConIALs usually have the benefit of easier pronunciation.

sudanglo:It therefore seems a legitimate question as to what problem Esperanto is actually the ideal solution, or is likely to be perceived as such.

It isn't ideal solution for anything, because it isn't an ideal language (but good enough). Ideal solution would be that all people would have exactly same native language.

sudanglo:Putting it in different words - in what domain is Esperanto the killer application.

Maybe it is as an introduction to foreign language learning. Perhaps it is as a language for package holidays in countries whose language is not widely spoken outside their frontiers. It might be for purely educational purposes for teaching grammar, or even purely as a brain exercise.

We need to get totally rid of wasting resources for foreign language learning – that's the whole point of IAL. You learn only your natlang and the IAL and that's it; you can communicate with anyone. How do you get to a position, that Esperanto would be the language to know for package holidays? That has been proposed and tried. How can you get people to learn it? Teaching grammar and a brain exercise, I advocate.

sudanglo:I do not have the answer. But rather than promoting Esperanto as the ideal interlanguage (the solution to the language problem), we might be well advised to concentrate on defining the problem that Esperanto actually most efficiently and convincingly addresses.

Good point. Don't necessarily need to be a problem, can be what benefits it can bring.

Why is it that the London Esperanto Club appears to be in terminal decline, when there are some 200-300 different languages spoken in London

Londoners already have an auxlang. Can you tell more about this decline?

Oijos:I communicated (or tried to) today with Nepalese man who spoke very fluent English. I understood about 40 %. His pronunciation was such, that I couldn't understand many words that I really know. Also he didn't understand me, because I couldn't find words (seems I'm only a passive knower of English) when I needed them. When I elpensis some circumlocutions, he didn't understand, because I couldn't pronounce them understandably enough. English is like written code to me. My personal experience has shown to me, that effective communication is impossible with other than native BBC English or American standard English speakers. So, I see a big problem. It would be solved if all would get the sounds to head when they are young enough. ConIALs usually have the benefit of easier pronunciation.

I suspect many people in these forums have had similar experiences. I am an educated native speaker of (General American) English living in a metropolitan area (suburban Washington) in which there are many foreign visitors and (temporary) residents. So over the years I have had much contact with individuals who come from non-English countries but who have studied English.

One time several years ago I was in (attempted) discussion with a foreign visitor. As nearly as I could tell, his command of English vocabulary and grammar was actually quite good. However, his pronunciation was such that I could barely understand him. (How well he understood me I don't know.) This is not an uncommon experience. Unless somehow there should come to be an "international standard" pronunciation of English -- and I am not holding my breath! -- this kind of experience will continue to be a problem.

I know from personal experience (as undoubtedly do many others here) that English phonology and phonotactics are actually rather difficult for adult learners from other native languages, and especially for native learners from some non-Indo-European language families. (In my experience, native speakers of other Germanic and Slavic languages manage to cope, due to comparable phonotactics.)

What does all this have to do with Esperanto, of course? Esperanto has a much simpler phonology than the more complex phonology of English (40 phonemes in my dialect, well above the world average, so far as I know). Some people have complained about E-o's phonotactics, in particular some of the consonant clusters (although as a native Germanic speaker I myself have no particular problem with them). But in general, I would say that E-o pronunciation should overall be somewhat easier for adult learners to grasp than that of English.

bartlett22183:What does all this have to do with Esperanto, of course? Esperanto has a much simpler phonology than the more complex phonology of English (40 phonemes in my dialect, well above the world average, so far as I know). Some people have complained about E-o's phonotactics, in particular some of the consonant clusters (although as a native Germanic speaker I myself have no particular problem with them). But in general, I would say that E-o pronunciation should overall be somewhat easier for adult learners to grasp than that of English.

Let's see what these questions yield.

First off I don't really know what "whinge" means in this context but I take it that it is a call for some kind of unpleasant reaction on the part of the administrators.
As for the pronunciation of the Englishes, I have discovered that often those who are very talented in their own mother tongues have an exceptionally hard time with the English spoken here and elsewhere. The disconnect between the written word and the spoken word of all Englishes is incredible. I find it a bit like the relation of spolen Chineses and Chinese script - there are some clues but they can also be misleading.
As for Sudanglo's first remark I somewhat agree. I think that what holds my heart is the Interna Ideo which does not exist in any other language that I know. The closest thing in my world of experience is the Roman Catholic stance on the Latin language.
As I have stated before, Esperanto does not have an army and I know nobody who has been forced to speak it. I have met some denaskuloj who indeed understand but do not like using Esperanto and only do so when those present absolutely do not understand their local ethnic language - but I have met many children of immigrants (like my partents were before they left this world) who want nothing to do with their parents' language(s). I lucked out in this respect but I sort of understand.
I think that talking about the Interna Ideo is not out of step with the zeitgeist but rather in tune with it.