Novatago has already more than adequately explained this in the other thread about it. It's not a word. The word is maldekstra. It's not about faith. It's simply about the nature of the language. Esperanto is the one language for which innovation is actually detrimental, since almost all of its speakers are non-native. To change it is to kill it.

AllenHartwell:Novatago has already more than adequately explained this in the other thread about it. It's not a word. The word is maldekstra. It's not about faith. It's simply about the nature of the language. Esperanto is the one language for which innovation is actually detrimental, since almost all of its speakers are non-native. To change it is to kill it.

Perhaps you have a different criteria of what constitutes a word; to me, if it is in PIV, it's a word. At any rate, whether to use or not use "liva" and whether it is considered a real word or not is really a minor issue; it does not in any way affect any of the basic systems of Esperanto, as does na-ism (affects the accusative), iĉ-ism (affects the gender system), and alies-aliel-aliu-ism (affects the correlative/table-word system). If other people consider it not a word and don't use it, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Why I prefer to use it has already been explained in the thread "Kion vi pensas pri la vortoj 'liva' kaj 'maldekstra'"; I'm not going to go into all that all over again. Of, course, I am not one to change a language to suit my personal preferences; if the word "liva" did not already exist in PIV, I wouldn't pull it out of thin air, or follow some other guy who pulled it out of thin air. I would say "maldekstra," although I still would wish that there were separate roots for left and right. In fact, I sometimes do use "maldekstra" to avoid causing a disturbance.

Also remember, that I have only been studying Esperanto for eight and a half months, so any position I hold now is not set in stone, except as I know for a fact that it is real Esperanto; for example, my position about na-ism is firmly set; I'm just not going there, no way. But when it comes to disputed points; I remain flexible, as I am not an expert and don't know everything. I am not interested in speaking "Idaĉo;" I want to know what the language really is, whether it really is that way because of the Fundamento or the Akademio or PIV says so, or because everybody does it (it has been quite frustrating trying to weed out the fringy neologisms from standard Esperanto when I'm trying to learn). Like the x-system is not in the Fundamento, but it is the majority system, and thus the most easily understood. The word "mojosa" is not in PIV, but it is also common and readily understood. That is part of why I created the aforementioned thread; to find out what were the general opinions about the word "liva."

I actually have a personal grudge against iĉ-ism, as I got confused by it early on in my Esperanto studies, in the book "Ŝi estas mia amiko." (Why on earth does lernu! recommend it?)

All which is off-topic. Not that I have an obsession with off-topic-ness, but I like to have things be at least remotely relevant to the topic! And since there is already a thread about the disputed word, we don't need another one!

I see. All I can say, then, is do what you want. Feel free to use liva. Feel free to use frida, olda, mava, mojosa, uesto, and every other fiacxa word under the sun. Especially feel free to stop "learning" (destroying) Esperanto and find a planlingvo more suitable to your tastes. Have you considered that every beginner who sees you use this idiotic "words" will assume that it's normal? You do a disservice to the entire community each time you use them. As I said though, nobody can or will prevent you from doing so. It's really your choice to join as a real member or become yet another crypto-Idist obstacle. But I really do recommend checking out some other planlingvo that doesn't have a real shot at success. Might I suggest Interlingua?

AllenHartwell:I see. All I can say, then, is do what you want. Feel free to use liva. Feel free to use frida, olda, mava, mojosa, uesto, and every other fiacxa word under the sun. Especially feel free to stop "learning" (destroying) Esperanto and find a planlingvo more suitable to your tastes. Have you considered that every beginner who sees you use this idiotic "words" will assume that it's normal? You do a disservice to the entire community each time you use them. As I said though, nobody can or will prevent you from doing so. It's really your choice to join as a real member or become yet another crypto-Idist obstacle. But I really do recommend checking out some other planlingvo that doesn't have a real shot at success. Might I suggest Interlingua?

GOOD GRIEF!!! I already said that I'm not trying to destroy anything!!! I'm trying to be nice here, but even I have my limits -- Well, I guess "nobody can or will prevent you" from making all manner of wild accusations against me -- it's not like I came up with those "fiaĉaj" words anyway!!! If you want to be that way be that way -- I'm leaving for a road trip the day after tomorrow -- you can slander me behind my back if you want -- It's too bad my vacation has to start this way.

Christa627:

AllenHartwell:I see. All I can say, then, is do what you want. Feel free to use liva. Feel free to use frida, olda, mava, mojosa, uesto, and every other fiacxa word under the sun. Especially feel free to stop "learning" (destroying) Esperanto and find a planlingvo more suitable to your tastes. Have you considered that every beginner who sees you use this idiotic "words" will assume that it's normal? You do a disservice to the entire community each time you use them. As I said though, nobody can or will prevent you from doing so. It's really your choice to join as a real member or become yet another crypto-Idist obstacle. But I really do recommend checking out some other planlingvo that doesn't have a real shot at success. Might I suggest Interlingua?

GOOD GRIEF!!! I already said that I'm not trying to destroy anything!!! I'm trying to be nice here, but even I have my limits -- Well, I guess "nobody can or will prevent you" from making all manner of wild accusations against me -- it's not like I came up with those "fiaĉaj" words anyway!!! If you want to be that way be that way -- I'm leaving for a road trip the day after tomorrow -- you can slander me behind my back if you want -- It's too bad my vacation has to start this way.

While Allen may have been a little harsh in his critique, he is essentially correct. These words are not part of the Fundamento (the barebones essence of what makes Esperanto Esperanto) and thus "not Esperanto." Thee is definitely free to use them but don't expect acceptance of them; indeed, thee may find that many people don't even understand them (I, myself had to look up "mava" and I've been learning/studying Esperanto on and off since 1974). After so many times of having to say the "correct" word (in order to explain what thee means) thee may decide in the end to abandon the Idismojn and use the usual (dare I say "correct"?) Esperanto words.

He is also correct in re the effect thy use of these around beginners; without an explanation (in addition to the "proper" word) that liva and company are NOT considered "real" Esperanto, thus leading them to believe (especially if they own such dictionaries as Wells' which do not differentiate Fundamenta words and the Ido-esque neologisms) that they are part of the language and "waste" their time learning them when there is no need. Indeed, I simply do not understand why thee wishes to waste thy time learning these words when there are perfectly acceptable (and way more often used) words to be used that do not burden the memory and thus leaving time to learn more "real" Esperanto.

Christa627:Perhaps you have a different criteria of what constitutes a word; to me, if it is in PIV, it's a word.

PIV is (in)famous for including any and all neologismojn no matter what. It is not something to emulate.

Christa627:At any rate, whether to use or not use "liva" and whether it is considered a real word or not is really a minor issue; it does not in any way affect any of the basic systems of Esperanto, as does na-ism (affects the accusative), iĉ-ism (affects the gender system), and alies-aliel-aliu-ism (affects the correlative/table-word system). If other people consider it not a word and don't use it, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Why I prefer to use it has already been explained in the thread "Kion vi pensas pri la vortoj 'liva' kaj 'maldekstra'"; I'm not going to go into all that all over again. Of, course, I am not one to change a language to suit my personal preferences; if the word "liva" did not already exist in PIV, I wouldn't pull it out of thin air, or follow some other guy who pulled it out of thin air. I would say "maldekstra," although I still would wish that there were separate roots for left and right. In fact, I sometimes do use "maldekstra" to avoid causing a disturbance.

well, then, look at it this way. In boating and in the Navy, "port" and "starboard" are used for "left" and "right." Why they are used isn't really important, but what IS important about these words is that they are SPECIALIZED vocabulary; intended for use in specific situations, or fakoj, if thee will. Use them with the man on the street and thee is likely to get a "huh? what's that mean?" and then thee must waste thy (and thy interlocutor's) time by 1. Saying the "normal" word, and 2. explaining the background of the word and why thee chooses to use it(well, maybe the second isn't strictly necessary, but i've found with people who insist on using weird words for no reason other than to be contrary or different more often than not offer the explanation whether it's asked for or not (and based on my experience with my use of "thee" and "thy" it's asked for, and very often quite hostile-ly)). Anyway, my brother, who retired from the Navy, is ALWAYS using Navy slang words (e.g. "head" instead of "bathroom" and "bulkhead" instead of "wall" )....whereas we in the family are all used to this, most people aren't and he has to waste everyone's time explaining when all he has to do is use the "normal" words "bathroom" or "wall" in the first place. It's quite annoying. He knows the "proper" words and uses them, even, many times; he just does the slang thing to be different, or (as I suspect) to draw attention to himself. I see the use of "liva and company" in the same light.

It would be SO NICE if the people "defending" the Fundamento would read and understand its Antaŭparolo, which gives the basic instructions how the language works:

-Everyone should use the roots found in the Fundamento (Universala Vortaro + Oficialaj Aldonoj), similarily the rules, BTW.

-Everyone can use additional roots by their pleasure (yes, also liva etc.!), unless they are synonyms to Fundamento roots (mal'dekstr'a is not a root). In the latter case, one needs a Tolerdeklaro (like with dekor' besid dekoraci') or its addition to the UV (like with aŭt' beside aŭtomobil') by the Esperanto Academy.

-International words are part of the language from its very beginning, everyone can use them, even as synonyms to Fundamento roots, without the need of official approval.

Again, it would be nice if especially AllenHartwell would check the basic facts first- liva is OK, the x-system is not.

Kirilo81:It would be SO NICE if the people "defending" the Fundamento would read and understand its Antaŭparolo, which gives the basic instructions how the language works:

-Everyone should use the roots found in the Fundamento (Universala Vortaro + Oficialaj Aldonoj), similarily the rules, BTW.

-Everyone can use additional roots by their pleasure (yes, also liva etc.!), unless they are synonyms to Fundamento roots (mal'dekstr'a is not a root). In the latter case, one needs a Tolerdeklaro (like with dekor' besid dekoraci') or its addition to the UV (like with aŭt' beside aŭtomobil') by the Esperanto Academy.

Nice to see there are still some who choose to go by the "letter of the law" rather than the "spirit."
/tongue removed from cheek

True, maldekstra may not be a root, per se, but dekstr, bon, et al are, and putting those together with the Fundamenta word building principles puts the resulting words in a category that does indeed proscribe beasts like "liva" and company.
And for what it's worth, it's "exegesis" like thine that led to Ido and company in the first place.

Christa, every Esperanto speaker makes their own judgement on which words to use for which ideas, and I am glad that you seem to be taking a careful and thoughtful approach to considering these words (though of course your conclusions may differ from mine after your consideration). I don't use liva, for example, but I call my refrigerator a fridujo (from frida), which is pretty common. A lot of new Esperanto speakers experiment a bit with their use of the language before they gain some more experience and eventually settle down into their final language pattern. You don't seem like some kind of over the top reformist (we do get those as beginners sometimes) so I hope you won't be too discouraged by some of the negative reactions to your explorations, it seems to me like you're doing just fine.

You will continue to navigate these linguistic choices as you gain experience in the language. I do have one piece of advice for you - I know your experience with Esperanto has been online thus far. Though the online community represents the real-life community in many respects, you should be aware that the online community is not as representative of "offline Esperanto" as you may suppose. The online community skews young and technology-focused. Real-life Esperanto has a very substantial number of retirees whose internet usage is minimal to zero, particularly as regards participating in Esperanto communities online. As you speak more Esperanto online, and eventually in real life, you will get a better idea of which of these newer words are essentially in the mainstream (fridujo is common, liva is not), and which are essentially not used at all (icx? ri? People discuss these things to death online, but bottom line, I don't really run into people using them in real life).

For example, someone active in online Esperanto forums is likely to know the meaning of 'mojosa' (even if they might think, like me, that the word itself is the very embodiment of uncoolness, and makes its speaker seem uncool as soon as the word is spoken). But you could go to a lot of real-life Esperanto clubs and find that a substantial proportion of people would not know this word. Someone under the age of 30 is likely to understand "mojosa", someone over the age of 60 likely does not know it. Similarly with "liva" - in normal spoken Esperanto, the word is simply "maldekstra". I basically never hear anyone say "liva" in real life, and I really don't see it being discussed in real life like you see online. The online Esperanto community more or less decided ages ago that a computer is "komputilo", but in real life, I still see a not-insignificant proportion of older people using "komputoro", which was the Academy's recommendation before komputilo "won" in the usage game. If you choose to use a word that you realize is less commonly used (or nonstandard), it's a good idea to have more of a standard word in your back pocket, to pull out in case you aren't understood.

The bottom line is, please do think about these things and look into them, but be open-minded and recognize that what you see online might not accurately reflect what you will see in Esperanto conventions in real life. You get a lot of loud strong opinions online, and the loud strong opinions might drown out the majority of people who just don't care so desperately much how you talk. You will eventually see that the ordinary Esperanto speakers at conventions do vary somewhat in how they speak, they mostly understand each other ok (and they mostly do not use words like "liva" - but as I said, this comes with experience, to know which of these words are generally used and understood, and which are generally not).