AllenHartwell:If you don't, then GTFO and find something else to ruin.

I agree with you based on the following assumption:

If a system (including a language system) never changes, it becomes stagnant and loses its relavance. If a system changes too much then it becomes unstable.

If Esperanto is to spread then stability should take priority. Otherwise, it will be very confusing for new people. When the language is spoken wordwide then it would seem logical to create revisions such as Ido.

Just my thoughts.

If Esperanto isn't allowed to follow a path "compatible" to the paths of human languages, can it ever become a human language or will it be forever an academic subject?

Whoops! Isn't Esperanto already a human language?

To qualify as a human language, it only has to be a language, and be spoken by human beings. Esperantists may be strange, but not sufficiently so that they can be thought of as non-human.

The error lies in the assumption that Esperanto must behave like natural languages - that conclusions drawn from the study of evolution in natural languages are transferrable to Esperanto. There are obvious reasons why this shouldn't be the case, particularly in the matter of regularity and the resistance to unsystematic grammatical change.

Universal free education Now this is a doubtful assumption if I've ever heard one. I am not quite sure if the two of us share the same planet.

How is it doubtful that the natural languages have undergone considerable evolution in periods when there wasn't universal free education among the relevant population of speakers?

If Esperanto is to spread then stability should take priority.

I believe a certain Doctor Zamenhof may have said the same thing.

When the language is spoken worldwide then it would seem logical to create revisions such as Ido.

Yeah, and invalidate over 100 years of literature and course books. How would this not be confusing to 'new people'?

sudanglo:

When the language is spoken worldwide then it would seem logical to create revisions such as Ido.

Yeah, and invalidate over 100 years of literature and course books. How would this not be confusing to 'new people'?

If it is spoken all over the world, it won't be new to anyone. When it becomes the lingua franca of the world, I don't think that revisions (at that point in time) will invalidate the previous literature and course books.

Alkanadi, I don't think even the most ardent finvenkisto imagines that the fina venko will result in everybody speaking Esperanto. Rather it will be just those who need to interact with people with whom they have no common language.

The language could well be geographically widespread, but still spoken by a relative small percentage of the population, and learnt as a second language (perhaps in school or University, but I would imagine often by self-instruction).

Alkanadi:

sudanglo:

When the language is spoken worldwide then it would seem logical to create revisions such as Ido.

Yeah, and invalidate over 100 years of literature and course books. How would this not be confusing to 'new people'?

If it is spoken all over the world, it won't be new to anyone. When it becomes the lingua franca of the world, I don't think that revisions (at that point in time) will invalidate the previous literature and course books.

What makes you think that everybody knowing Esperanto will lead to everyone wanting to learn Ido? I have yet to see English reforms while English is the lingua frannca. And it would most certainly invalidate all prior textbooks and literature to completely change the language.

I agree with sudanglo that in the end Esperanto would be a second language used when no common tongue is available. In certain areas it would see widespread use, but many places will get along just fine with their natural language. However, I would define the fina venko to be when Esperanto overtakes English/Chinese/etc as the lingua franca (children are taught Eo in schools instead of anything else). In developed nations this would undoubtedly lead to "everybody" learning Esperanto through school.

If as many years are devoted to it as are spent on other languages I'd bet most people would be more fluent than the majority of advanced Esperantists are now. I studied Spanish from 1st grade through to my Junior year in high school. I can't imagine it would even be possible to spend that much time learning Esperanto.

I am currently working on an article entitled: English - The Language of the Elite
The main theme is how the upper-crust in England developed usage to distinguish themselves form the commoners and how this little gimmick has been replicated in the international use of English, making it the language of preferred use among those who want to belong to the elite. Having taught English (pronunciation, syntax, semantics, morphology, pragmatics, discourse, etc.) for many years, I have come to view it as a means of suppression and oppression for many. I find it interesting that few native English speakers truly want to acquire full usage of a second language and my students of other languages do, indeed, look down on the speakers of the languages they are studying and therefore never fully master them.

Please have a look at the first paragraph of the Antaŭparolo:

Kiam nia lingvo estos oficiale akceptita de la registaroj de la plej ĉefaj regnoj kaj tiuj ĉi registaroj per speciala leĝo garantios al Esperanto tute certan vivon kaj uzatecon kaj plenan sendanĝerecon kontraŭ ĉiuj personaj kapricoj aŭ disputoj, tiam aŭtoritata komitato, interkonsente elektita de tiuj registaroj, havos la rajton fari en la fundamento de la lingvo unu fojon por ĉiam ĉiujn deziritajn ŝanĝojn, se tiaj ŝanĝoj montriĝos necesaj; sed ĝis tiu tempo la fundamento de Esperanto devas plej severe resti absolute senŝanĝa, ĉar severa netuŝebleco de nia fundamento estas la plej grava kaŭzo de nia ĝisnuna progresado kaj la plej grava kondiĉo por nia regula kaj paca progresado estonta.

It is part of the plan to change the Fundamento in case of the Fina Venko, and I think discussions coming up again and again, e.g. about the conditional past, the asymmetric system of gender assignment, the ata/ita debate, or problems like the low distinctiveness of the personal pronouns show fields worthy of occupation for the to-be "aŭtoritata komitato", so they are not necessarily a waist of time and energy.

sudanglo:

If Esperanto is to spread then stability should take priority.

I believe a certain Doctor Zamenhof may have said the same thing.

Yes, stability is crucial. I have been around "auxiliary language" circles for years, and the longer I am around the longer I am convinced that stability is crucial.

When the language is spoken worldwide then it would seem logical to create revisions such as Ido.

Yeah, and invalidate over 100 years of literature and course books. How would this not be confusing to 'new people'?

To be sure. Although I have not always in all particulars agreed with sudanglo, I do agree that stability and constancy are vitally important. Constructed auxiliary languages -- yes, even including Esperanto -- have so little awareness in the general population and even, regrettably, among professional linguists, that we (figuratively speaking) have to present a strongly united front if we are at all to be taken seriously.

Kirilo81:Please have a look at the first paragraph of the Antaŭparolo:

Kiam nia lingvo estos oficiale akceptita de la registaroj de la plej ĉefaj regnoj kaj tiuj ĉi registaroj per speciala leĝo garantios al Esperanto tute certan vivon kaj uzatecon kaj plenan sendanĝerecon kontraŭ ĉiuj personaj kapricoj aŭ disputoj, tiam aŭtoritata komitato, interkonsente elektita de tiuj registaroj, havos la rajton fari en la fundamento de la lingvo unu fojon por ĉiam ĉiujn deziritajn ŝanĝojn, se tiaj ŝanĝoj montriĝos necesaj; sed ĝis tiu tempo la fundamento de Esperanto devas plej severe resti absolute senŝanĝa, ĉar severa netuŝebleco de nia fundamento estas la plej grava kaŭzo de nia ĝisnuna progresado kaj la plej grava kondiĉo por nia regula kaj paca progresado estonta.

It is part of the plan to change the Fundamento in case of the Fina Venko …

I didn't know about that; very interesting.

But i'd say that the chance, for Esperanto to become what is described above, is gone and won't reappear in the near future — Der Zug ist abgefahren.

I see a chicken-egg-problem here: One reason why Esperanto is not adopted is that it has some reformendaj features. But following the idea from above any kontraŭ-Fundamenta change must be postponed until Esperanto is widely adopted. These two things block each other. Which side will make the first step?