I bet there are several left handed Esperantists.

I hope nobody thinks I think that is okay.

nornen:I don't think that equalling gay pride marches to nazi youth rallies is helping to promote Esperanto...

Polaris:[...] carrying signs at a "gay pride" march declaring that their national Esperanto community supports the homosexual agenda is practically Orwellian. [...]

This would be no different than having Esperantists show up at Nazi Youth rally with signs saying their local Esperanto community supports National Socialism, [...]

I am still astonished that you actually wrote this. You are exhibit A of those Malborough Baptist Church lernu users, I mentioned in another thread. No matter what your actual church is called.

This is almost too ridiculous to dignify with a response; however, if you had bothered to actually read (with any degree of understanding) what I have written on this thread, you might have noticed that I have mentioned a whole gamut of controversial social/political events--including Tea Party events, Republican rallies, feminist "partial-birth abortion" speeches, etc. Since it apparently needs to be stated, let me make clear that no attempt was made to establish a moral equivalence between the groups I mentioned--I could have also mentioned church events, union rallies, or partisan candidate symposiums and made the same point.

I did this as an example of the inappropriateness of Esperantists taking positions at highly controversial events in the name of the local/national/international Esperanto groups they represent when they have no right to declare that their members support the objectives of those controversial groups. I really don't have the energy or even the desire to go through it all with you and recap the whole thread just so you won't jump to the wrong conclusions and miss the point--if you're already comparing the comments you've read to (what I BELIEVE you meant to say) Westboro Bapt. Church, then I'm sure it would be futile to try to disuade you, regardless of what I say, so think what you want to--you're going to anyway. And yes, it IS practically Orwellian for one or two people in an organization to put forth their opinions as THE views for the entire group when that group's objectives have nothing to do with the content of the rally they are attending.

-forigite-

We interrupt this totally fascinating discussion on the links between gay pride, Nazism, and Esperanto, for a post that is in some small way related to the original topic of this thread.

In answer to the OP's post, here is a link to a site that provides University level education free for anyone who speaks English and has net access.
All you need to do is translate that content to Esperanto and you have created a means for non English speakers to gain a world class education......once they learn Esperanto.
Have fun.

Let the lunacy resume.

Bemused:Let the lunacy resume.

Thank you. I was already afraid that this thread might find its way back into sensible terrain.

Tempodivalse:

vejktoro:I bet there are several left handed Esperantists.

I hope nobody thinks I think that is okay.

If memory serves, there was some Asian country where left-handedness was considered a disorder up until the 70s ... :eyeroll:

I don't think having Esperantists comparing homosexuality to Nazism is good for Esperanto's PR. It was very disappointing to hear that coming from you, Polaris. Do you really believe gay pride parades result in the a comparable amount of harm as Nazi rallies (and their participants)? That appears to be the implication. Please tell me this was just an attempt at hyperbole.

Oh, my goodness ---Tempodivalse, read what I wrote to Noren--it's the post just above this one---I'm not going through it all again.

I've opened a new thread "Neŭtraleco de Esperantujo -- ĉu reala, ĉu inda?" in the Vidpunktoj forum. So those who want to discuss that topic are invited to continue the discussion there in Esperanto and leave this thread to its original question.

johmue:So you think the way of life we are talking about here is immoral and indecent?

Johmue, let's have a logic check here---I basically said that I thought the Esperanto movement was damaging itself by highlighting such things as sexual immorality, distasteful humor, etc., and gave as examples (a) making a point of having congresses in communist countries and (b) passing out condoms at Tejo events, (c) people attending a "gay pride" march with signs saying their national organization supported their aims.

I explained that if we're ever to be taken seriously in the world community, we've got to stop underscoring those aspects of our movement and instead begin commanding respect by offering what society would find purposeful--and I gave examples such as Esperanto-based college courses, practical texts, humanitarian relief, business, etc. Then YOU essentially told ME that in Europe, those things wouldn't be considered unacceptable at all---that it would all be considered quite normal.

Now, I didn't buy what you said. I told you that (a) I don't believe that it's correct to characterized all of Europe like that, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY (b), even if it were true, SO WHAT? Europe isn't the entire world and doesn't set the trend for the world---we still need to consider how we are making ourselves look to the world at large, and not just Europe.

A. there are still Europeans who are faithfully married and raising children with solid morals and family values,

Indeed there are. As opposed to you, they or the majority of them don't consider people following a different way of life "immoral" and "indecent".

Or possibly they're intimidated into silence and don't feel the freedom to be honest about what they really think. Either way, Europe is not the world--even if these things were acceptable in Europe, it's still immorality, still distasteful, and still makes us look like THAT'S what Esperanto is all about. Do I really need to spell this out for you? Extramarital sex, homosexuality, dirty songs/jokes, condoms at youth events---IT DOESN'T MATTER if these things are as accepted as you seem to think they are in Europe---they make us look bad to respectable society at large, particularly when that's what's featured and that's what people see. Ditto radical political ideologies.

If Esperanto IS intercultural, as you say, then that means that it's not all about Europe. What about the moral sensibilities of many of the Americans?

If people having other values of moral than you are hurting your sensibilities, well, your problem. The world is diverse and we all have to deal with that.

No, it's NOT just my problem...if we're turning people off, and they DON'T have to deal with that. They can just ignore us and continue to treat us with contempt--and that's OUR problem. This cavalier "if they don't like it, I don't give a rip" attitude is what's hurting our entire movement.

Don't we make up part of the culture as well?

A part, yes. And as a part you have to accept that it's only a part that's not in any way superiour or more moral than other parts.

You seem to be intent on missing my point. NOBODY owes Esperanto or the Esperanto movement any consideration at all. We have to WIN the respect and the involvement of society at large. And whether your like it or not, no, as a matter of fact, Americans DON'T have to accept anything--anymore than you do. The things I'm talking about are morally repugnant (or at least considered distasteful) in MANY world cultures. It's time for the Esperanto movement, as a whole, to grow out of the stage of letting this sort of thing characterize our movement.

This all grew out of what the OP said about an External management course in Esperanto. Personally, I think having accredited college courses (which a national college could arrange through an international studies program), having good quality textbooks and PRACTICAL informative texts would be a step in the right direction.

And no, Johmue, I DON'T think I get to "just talk" while everybody else does the work...but it's ridiculous to attack someone just for recognzing a need. There are enough of us in the Esperanto community with masters degrees and PhD's who could teach in an on-line international studies program put together through an accredited university; print/translate textbooks, etc.--but instead, we're holding youth events and passing out the condoms while some guys sings a song about being impotent--then your solution to that is to say that if someone doesn't like it, that's their problem---it would be accepted in Europe.
And by the way, I'm glad you have a Science Review magazine waiting for articles---I may just have to send you one on Repudiation of Darwinian Evolution: Intelligent Design Models Explaining Irreducible Complexities. Interested?

I find religion-induced rants distasteful. That and assuming that your religion gives you the right to declare what is immoral and what not, what is "respectable" and what not. How dare you, Polaris, imagine that you will be the judge of this for all of us? Take a step back and think about what you did.

I got your point and I think I prezented it concisely in the new thread. Just one point:

Polaris:even if these things [Extramarital sex, homosexuality, dirty songs/jokes, condoms at youth events] were acceptable in Europe, it's still immorality, still distasteful.

You can't say that generally. It is distasteful and immoral to you, yes. But not to me. To me extramartial sex and homosexuality is just as normal as bread and butter and daylight.

Polaris:And by the way, I'm glad you have a Science Review magazine waiting for articles---I may just have to send you one on Repudiation of Darwinian Evolution: Intelligent Design Models Explaining Irreducible Complexities. Interested?

No. That would make it look as if ISAE as part of Esperanto movement is supporting pseudoscience like creationism and intelligent design.

That's the answer you wanted to provoke in order to make your point clear, isn't it?