Esperanto has several other more problematic flaws than adjectivial agreement, something which for most people becomes second nature in fairly short order. Yet for some reason this rather innocuous feature more than any other causes people critical of Esperanto to spew forth endless bile and vitriol. Very strange.

I hope I didn't sound like a bile-spewer.

You probably already know that Zamenhof himself proposed to get rid of it, describing it as "superfluous ballast".

Yes, I have read that. Perhaps Zamenhof took Rogir's view:

Sure you could have a language without, but not Esperanto because the agreement is intrinsic to the language.

So noun-adjective concord -- in all of its forms -- provides an integral case structure. I don't discount that argument.

I myself quite like the way the concordant "aj"s and "oj"s impart a particular aesthetic to the sound of Esperanto, which I find quite pleasing.

That is a nice feature. I tend to discount euphony, when thinking about the language.

I think you're right in that the arguments in it's favour don't stand up from the point of view of pure simplicity, logic and economy.

Yeah, I keep coming back to that.

I'm trying to learn to love it. Give it time.

Good advice.

arkadio:I hope I didn't sound like a bile-spewer.

Not at all I think it's great that you're exploring these matters with an open mind, free from Esperanto zealotry. My rant was more directed at those who think adjectivial agreement is some kind of a big problem just because, as a design descision, it was arguably a poor one. Although I can't really provide what I would consider to be a compelling argument for including it in an optimally designed IAL, I find it difficult to regard its inclusion in Esperanto with any degree of aversion since getting to grips with it is so trivial, especially compared to some other aspects of the language that cause people real problems, like the difficult pronunciation, root classes, the European pragmatics, verb transitivity etc.

arkadio:I tend to discount euphony, when thinking about the language.

Of course euphony is a subjective thing and you could argue that phonaesthetics are a relatively unimportant consideration in an auxlang, but I personally wouldn't be too quick to discount it, I think it's actually quite important. In chapter 20 of Esperanto: A Language for the Global Villiage, Sylvan Zaft makes an argument that the aesthetic qualities of Esperanto may be what has kept it alive all this time. I might not agree with that 100% but I think he does makes some very valid points.

I find it difficult to regard its inclusion in Esperanto with any degree of aversion since getting to grips with it is so trivial, especially compared to some other aspects of the language that cause people real problems,

I agree that it is not hard. As you pointed out, the aj-oj combination is pleasing (the "oj" in particular gives Eo a sort of Homeric majesty) and may even make for easier speech. Sonically mellifluous but logically discordant. Go figure. (It has occurred to me that Zamenhof may have chosen the dipthongs aj and oj in order to furnish Eo with more varied vowel sounds. Mandatory agreement ensures the frequent occurrence "aj," which might otherwise have rarely appeared.) Thanks for the link to Zaft's book. I'll read the chapter.

ceigered:Gunfighting ensues, casualties are high.
The usurption of the Speranza family is put down, and all is good.
Fin

I love your analogy! But I'd end it slightly differently; Bellafronte sets out to start his own family, which he names Esposito. The Esposito family tries to build up its business but never approaches the power of the ruling Speranza dynasty. Many of the soldiers of the Esposito family see its weakness and defect to other families. The Esposito family ekes out a living with a minor protection racket but doesn't present enough of a threat even for local governments to move against it.

arkadio:

Give it time.

Good, practical advice. If Winston could learn to love Big Brother, I suppose that I should make an effort.

I wouldn't say it's about learning to love Big Brother. I mean this in the very nicest possible way [seriously], but my point of view is that people should accept the language for what it is, or go find another language to learn. We can debate Zamenhof's intentions with various aspects of the language until we're blue in the face. For me, the bottom line is that some people love certain aspects that other people hate. And if someone dislikes enough aspects of Esperanto, then maybe they should find another international language community to join. I really enjoy Esperanto, and I acknowledge that it has its plusses and minuses and things that I wish were done differently, but on the whole, I'm happy with what we have. On the other hand, some people really dislike certain aspects of Esperanto, and they eventually decide to "make their home" with another language that doesn't have those attributes. Some time back, there was an active member of this forum who was vehemently against so many aspects of Esperanto. I think he may have settled on Novial or something. And good for him! Life is too short to be stressing out about things like grammar of an international language; if one doesn't suit your taste, find another.

So I guess my advice is two-fold. One - don't feel that you have to learn to love a certain aspect of the language. Some aspects of it, you will never love, I can guarantee it. The corollary to that, however, is that I think it's a good idea to give it a chance. Some people come in and say "this, this, and this need to be changed" (I'm not saying that you said this, it's just an example) without first learning the language well enough to see how those components work together, to see that maybe those components make the language better in the long run, even if they make it more difficult to learn in the short run. Two - it might just be that Esperanto has many aspects that you don't like. Life is too short to force yourself into the mold of something you don't enjoy. If it makes you unhappy, find another international language that does make you happy. Esperanto has a lot of literature and a worldwide community, but to me, an international language should also be a joy to speak. And if it isn't a joy for you to speak it, then maybe you can find another one that is a joy for you to speak

erinja:

ceigered:Gunfighting ensues, casualties are high.
The usurption of the Speranza family is put down, and all is good.
Fin

I love your analogy! But I'd end it slightly differently; Bellafronte sets out to start his own family, which he names Esposito. The Esposito family tries to build up its business but never approaches the power of the ruling Speranza dynasty. Many of the soldiers of the Esposito family see its weakness and defect to other families. The Esposito family ekes out a living with a minor protection racket but doesn't present enough of a threat even for local governments to move against it.

Dammit Bellafronte, he should have known there was no money in counterfeit jeans!

Thanks for the revision to the end of the script . Pity Bellafronte didn't try to work with Speranza and at least run the Esposito idea past Samenuovo. Aiyaiyai...

I thought I didn't really like the -j diphthongs but now when I look at Ido it looks barren, ugly and unnatural

erinja:Some time back, there was an active member of this forum who was vehemently against so many aspects of Esperanto. I think he may have settled on Novial or something.

I think you are thinking about J B Rye and his very detailed rant which has been online, as far as I can remember, at least since 1999. A friend of mine exchanged a few emails with him and he eventually said that he considered Novial to be indeed a better choice. I don't know whether Mr. Rye has ever been a member of this forum (I doubt it), but I guess I might have mentioned him and his rant to you once.

gyrus:I thought I didn't really like the -j diphthongs but now when I look at Ido it looks barren, ugly and unnatural

Italian masculine plural: o -> i
Russian masculine plural: - -> i
Greek masculine plural: os -> oi (but pronounced 'i').

To people from those kind of linguistic backgrounds I doubt it looks unnatural, but I guess opinions are always relative rather than absolute

As for the wonderful 'how to NOT learn Esperanto', well, I think the domain 'www.xibalba.demon.co.uk' says enough (he's not entirely without merit tho, just... meh).

ceigered:As for the wonderful 'how to NOT learn Esperanto', ... (he's not entirely without merit tho, just... meh).

I read it ten years now, but from what I can recollect, he raises many good points, which would make more sense if Zamenhof had been a true linguist, which he wasn't.

I think a part of Esperanto's appeal is rooted in emotions; one might applaud the idea behind the language, or respect the spirit by which it was designed and evolved, or be positively impressed by the community of speakers or its 110+ years of literature and history etc. Many expert speakers will have no trouble admitting that Esperanto is much farther from perfection than it is usually claimed at first. However it is also a lot more regular, on average, than lots of other ethnic languages, especially in an European context, and this, I believe, is enough for most who decide to learn it.