글: 13
언어: English
lavagulo (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 28일 오후 11:01:51
Mi traduku esperante por ekzerci min: Mi rimarkis la vorton "oldulo" en antaŭnelonge fadeno. Do mi foliumis la novan vortaron de John C. Wells kaj trovis, je mia surprizo, ke la vorto estis aŭtentika. 'Olda' kaj 'oldulo' estas aŭtentikaj esperantaj vortoj kaj signifas 'old' and 'old man'? Ŝajnas al mi ke tiuj vortoj estas tro anglaj kaj la esperantaj vortoj anstataŭe devus esti uzataj . Kial ne uzu la vortojn 'maljuna' kaj 'malnova'?
erinja (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 29일 오전 2:46:38
I believe it is a loan word from Ido. I don't know whether the Ido meaning corresponds to maljuna or maljuna - or both. In any case, it is an Ido word that was brought into Esperanto. But it never replaced maljuna and malnova. Rather, it evolved to take on a different meaning. In modern usage, it often means "old" with a connotation of out-dated, not in keeping with the times, etc. An "oldulo" would therefore be an old person who is resistant to change. It's a pejorative, akin to calling someone an "old timer" or perhaps an "old fart" in English. Normally it is applied to older people within the Esperanto movement who exhibit these characteristics.
I have seen some citations of its use to mean a simple old man (Hemingway's "The old man and the sea" seems to have been translated with oldulo - or else, is this the old fart connotation as well? I have not read it, personally). I have seen some asian uses of it that seem to indicate not just an old man, but an elder. In any case, the connotation is somewhat different than a simple man who is old.
It's not a commonly used root. Feel free to stick to maljunulo when talking about old men, it's really the most common choice.
Timtim (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 29일 오전 6:59:58
erinja:In modern usage, it often means "old" with a connotation of out-dated, not in keeping with the times, etc. An "oldulo" would therefore be an old person who is resistant to change. It's a pejorative, akin to calling someone an "old timer" or perhaps an "old fart" in English.That's interesting. The older people (young at heart, long-time speakers from the UK) that I spoke to about this refer to themselves as olduloj. When I asked them why maljunuloj didn't work for them they gave me the opposite response to yours; they thought that maljunulo came across as pejorative (since it's centred on their no longer being young) and that olduloj gave them a sense of equality, since they had their own label, instead of a morph of someone else's.
Maybe this is an example of different interpretations across cultures. It's a shame that PIV only gives maljuna as its definition for olda, as does Wells's recently updated dictionary.
Evildela (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 29일 오전 9:39:26
lavagulo (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 29일 오후 12:11:40
'Olda', though, is a new one for me. I had never seen it before and never noticed it in the dictionary. Now that I'm aware of it, I see that both Wells and Butler have it in their dictionaries -- but only as a one-liner. Thanks for the info. I think I'll stick to using 'malnova' and 'maljuna' whenever possible, though.
Miland (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 29일 오후 1:06:51
qwertz (프로필 보기) 2010년 3월 29일 오후 5:54:15
Scalex (프로필 보기) 2010년 4월 1일 오후 8:26:02
mrdeano:What's wrong with it being too English?Usually, Esperanto words are taken from words which exist in multiple languages, and spread across a large area - juna is related to the German, French, and Spanish (from a quick check in lernu's vortaro), whereas "old" is primarily English.