What do you think is the idea behind "cool"?
qwertz-tól, 2010. augusztus 10.
Hozzászólások: 33
Nyelv: English
qwertz (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 10. 18:31:21
Ehm. It's regarding mojosa again.
My personal view: (non-English native)
In my opinion marking something being cool simply means in the beginning something similar like "great". But "great" comes somewhat "Small-Talk" styled. "Cool" is more powerfull. In my opinion it's more the way:
"Hey, I don't why excactly (=consciously), but that set of experiences I encounter right now or what it promise that someone could encounter the next future, will fit perfectly into my personal pool of experiences/beliefs." There's no either or nor. It's strictly frozen "cool".
The "I don't why" has the reason that your subconsciousness protects you, providing your limited consciousness all your personal experiences at onces which give evidence that this set of new experiences fits perfectly your beliefs.
That's what "cool" means to me.
erinja (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 10. 19:04:51
The word "mojosa" is an awful translation for the English word "cool" because it stands for "modern, young-style". Something being modern or fashionable among young people can be called cool, but if you limit "cool" to this definition, then it's only a tiny subset of things that are called "cool" in English.
Things can be "cool" without relating to youth or to modernity or to style at all. A huge waterfall that comes crashing down can be called "cool".
You call something cool when you think it's interesting and you like it a lot.
I think it is pointless to try to translate "cool" because you do just fine without it, and any translation fails to capture the range of meanings of the English word. I speak Esperanto without using the word "ok" or any translation of it, and I do just fine.
And quite frankly I am a little sick of discussions of "cool" and "mojosa". We have had multiple threads on this topic before. I suppose I should stop reading this thread so not to have the urge to start banging my head against a wall.
darkweasel (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 10. 19:15:42
Personally I think mojosa is just another neologism. Mojosa is to malaĉa what kurta is to mallonga. Some have proposed malfeka but this word seems to me as meaning "related to food" (you know what malfeko has to be, logically ...), which is why I keep using malaĉa.
Concerning "ok", I always use bone for this meaning, it somehow doesn't seem as "artificial" as o kej.
Evildela (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 2:39:23
but I think there’s no doubt that in esperantujo is has become the Esperanto equivilent of cool. Just like the word cool originally related to temperature, but has now evolved. Mojosa may have meant something young and hip originally, but it too has now evolved.
Why would any try replace “bone” for some okay translation? Bone is just as simple and follows Esperanto’s grammatical rules.
patrik (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 5:32:24
I disagree with darkweasel's verdict, that "mojosa" is "just another neologism". In fact, these guys did something much greater than just merely creating a neologism: they defined the Esperanto concept of "cool". By doing this consciously, they most firmly assert that Esperanto is an autonomous language, that it has its own internal logic, that it doesn't have to "borrow" concepts, and that it can have an independent conception of ideas and worldview apart from its European roots.
The fact, that many don't like "mojosa", doesn't surprise me at all, for I do think that I know the reason why: this concept of "coolness" doesn't conform to the way they naturally conceive the concept, that is, their native language's concept of "cool". And the fact that "mojosa" was created in a congress adds more to their inability to accept the new word and its concept: this is an artificial creation of a few people. [Wait, we can also say the same about the beginnings of E-o, right?]
All I can say at this point is that "mojosa" is a fact and has a unique quasi-indigenous concept behind it, and that more and more Esperantists are using this word. We have to accept it, whether we like it or not. Just as I was shocked to find out that the Japanese concept of "cute" can also be applied to the face of a dying Shōwa Emperor, this novel quasi-indigenous Esperanto concept of "cool" can also shock or confuse its learners and speakers. But we should now recognize that E-o is no longer an experiment and is now an autonomous language, having its own internal logic and quasi-native concepts (like "kabei", "krokodili", and now, "mojosa"), and is constantly evolving at its own pace and in unique ways, as well.
ceigered (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 8:30:42
darkweasel:Personally I think mojosa is just another neologism. Mojosa is to malaĉa what kurta is to mallonga. Some have proposed malfeka but this word seems to me as meaning "related to food" (you know what malfeko has to be, logically ...), which is why I keep using malaĉa.Malfeko sounds... Hard to do
. Reminds me of a certain type of tablet that goes in "the other end"...RE Neologisms, I must say, I'm a fan of kurta. If I know I can get away with it, I try to slip it in under the radar - not that I mind using mal forms, and will use them almost all the time anyway, but I just can't assmilate to the idea of there being a "native" state for some opposite pairs (e.g. "longa", v.s. "mallonga" - it sort of gives the impression that being "long" is more normal than being "short"), and I think it sort of goes against things like the tendency for human languages to keep concepts shorter and more easily discernible against each other when words are used more often. And plus, "mal" is in the unstressed part of the word anyway, so in the case of mojosa vs. malaĉa, mojosa is probably going to be less easily confused with its exact opposite
.But I digress that that is looking at Esperanto as an langilo and less of a denasklango, so apologies for my impersonal viewpoints there - as you've probably guessed by now, I'm rather oppurtunistic when it comes to the ugly combination of language evolution and global lingua franca proposals
, so pay no attention to my devious scheming.But anyway this all goes back to the conversation from before - I reckon, if it works with whomever you are speaking to, then use the word, otherwise, use something (like malaĉa). Malaĉa maybe the safe option with some, mojosa perhaps the safe option with some internet-dwelling esperantists? Who knows.
darkweasel (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 10:21:11
patrik:I don't have any problems regarding "mojosa". I even wish that this word be included to the upcoming 10th Official Addition to the Fundamento (thus making it "untouchable").Actually, the Akademio may decide to "disofficialize" a word, up until now it's done so twice: the root ANALOGI/ was replaced by ANALOG/ and the root KONCENTR/ was removed because everyone used SAM/CENTR/ anyway for the meaning this word had at that time.
tommjames (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 11:44:49
darkweasel:the root KONCENTR/ was removedAre you sure? ReVo states that it was just changed from an adjective to a verb.
qwertz (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 14:46:26
erinja: I suppose I should stop reading this thread so not to have the urge to start banging my head against a wall.Aŭtŝ! That hurts.
RiotNrrd (Profil megtekintése) 2010. augusztus 11. 15:23:38
"The best part of the trip was the museum! Seeing those paintings by Rembrandt was really cool!"
"Cool" is not intrinsically related to youth, modernity, or style. Mojosa may absorb the extra meanings, but the words that it is based on don't carry them.
Now, you could say that mojosa doesn't mean THAT kind of cool. That's fine. What word does?
Perhaps "ŝatenda"? That's just a top-of-the-head suggestion, but it's MORE in line with what I'm thinking. I can't think of anything that someone thinks is cool AND dislikes at the same time.