Beiträge: 109
Sprache: English
Christa627 (Profil anzeigen) 4. August 2014 20:19:35
sudanglo:The best Esperantists seem to be those who took up Esperanto in the age range 16 to 25.Epic! I'm in that range; guess I've got the advantage
!alkanadi:Be careful about forcing kids into these programs. They might end up hating Esperanto and wanted to barf everytime they see it for the rest of their life.And that would be a tragedy!
Christa627 (Profil anzeigen) 4. August 2014 20:58:50
AllenHartwell:NO. They are lying. The accusative is NOT being "phased" out. The language is not changing. It cannot change by its very nature.Well, as I said in the original post, being wrong doesn't necessarily mean lying. It is possible to be honestly mistaken, and someone who doesn't really speak Esperanto could be easily mistaken. And the language does change slightly, with the addition of new words and such.
AllenHartwell: The Fundamento clearly states that the accusative exists and so it exists and always will exist in Esperanto. The failure of individuals to learn and speak proper Esperanto does not change this.That's good. So, even if all the other Esperantists in the world were to misuse or omit the accusative, and, while they're at it, resort to na-ism and iĉ-ism and ri-ism and alies-aliel-aliu-ism, I could still rest assured that regardless of what they do, I am speaking real Esperanto, so long as I conform to the Fundamento! It would be a rather lonely existence though, being the only real Esperanto-speaker in the world; I'm glad that scenario is extremely unlikely! (And I actually like the accusative, believe it or not!)
But come to think of it, I'm actually not all that familiar with the Fundamento; I know about the 16 rules and that sort of thing, but not the rest of it; maybe I should study it more. I now at this very moment have the Vikipedio article on "Fundamento de Esperanto" up in the next tab.
AllenHartwell (Profil anzeigen) 5. August 2014 05:05:45
bartlett22183 (Profil anzeigen) 5. August 2014 16:53:47
Sooner or later the tinkering has to stop and the real using begin. That is why I myself no longer support the construction of any more or newer IALs. We already have an oversupply of "good enough" languages. As far as I am concerned only Esperanto, with Interlingua a distant second (the latter primarily in the western countries), has/have any real chance of relative success.
Christa627 (Profil anzeigen) 5. August 2014 18:35:47
AllenHartwell:The vast majority of Esperanto speakers learn and use standard Esperanto. The interlopers and reformists are actually a tiny minority outside of the internet.Wow, there are Esperantists outside of the internet? For me Esperantujo and Internet are basically synonymous
. I've never met an Esperantist outside of the internet, and I don't use the internet for much besides Esperanto stuff. But then, I live out on the High Plains; there's not a lot of action out here.Of course, what I said about being the only real Esperanto speaker in the world was intended as a somewhat humorous hypothetical situation; I know there are many others, some even more "Fundamentista" than I am! (I use the word "liva" and the x-system [when I can't use real letters], otherwise I think I'm pretty normal languagewise, though it is possible that I have been influenced by neologisms without knowing it.) But how can I claim to be "Fundamentista" if I've only read the first dozen or so pages of the Fundamento? I'm currently working on rectifying the situation
. AllenHartwell (Profil anzeigen) 5. August 2014 22:49:29
sergejm (Profil anzeigen) 6. August 2014 05:24:14
AllenHartwell:There is no word "liva" and never has been. The word you're looking for is maldekstra.The word "liva" exists. This is not an offical word, but there are some thing you can't speak using only the official words.
Use "liva" for example, as a command to a dog or a soldier, where a short word is needed.
Elsewhere use "maldekstra".
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 6. August 2014 10:06:24
For example livo-branĉa analizo or kurt-onda radio.
In chemistry, aren't there some molecules that come in left-handed and right-handed versions. I can imagine 'liv' being useful there.
bartlett22183 (Profil anzeigen) 6. August 2014 17:57:43
I am not sure whether even here a neologism such as 'liva' is really needed. 'Livo-branĉa analizo' or 'kurt-onda radio'? I myself see no need why 'maldekstra-branĉa analizo' or 'mallonga-onda radio' would not be adequate (unless one fanatically insists on the shortest possible forms). Regarding molecules, yes, there are stereoisomers, in English often referred to as levorotatory and dextrorotatory (if I recall correctly), but again I see no need to import unnecessary forms.I have noticed that with respect to other languages, English is often more dense, in the sense that a given meaning is sometimes conveyed in fewer syllables in English than in, say, French or Spanish (two languages for which I have made comparisons), but that in itself does not mean that Esperanto must slavishly ape English against its own "spirit" and always do things the absolutely possible shortest way, regardless of unnecessarily expanding the word stock.
morfran (Profil anzeigen) 6. August 2014 18:49:29
bartlett22183:that in itself does not mean that Esperanto must slavishly ape English against its own "spirit" and always do things the absolutely possible shortest way, regardless of unnecessarily expanding the word stock.I think it's been brought up elsewhere that brevity isn't the only reason for alternatives to constructions with mal-; sometimes clarity is an issue (unstressed mal- can get lost in noisy environments, for example), sometimes the alternative has enough international currency to make it an attractive or even preferable option.
In any case, there are plenty of official instances of separte roots for pairs of opposites (norda/suda, tago/nokto, etc.), and if ever one doesn't know the word for, say, nokto, one can still render it maltago and be understood.
Some may always prefer constructions with mal-, some may prefer separate roots; whatever one's bent, I don't see why a word like liva, whether it's caught on or not, presents such a faith-shaking threat to some people — and wonder if it really does outside the thunderdome of internet forums.