Mesaĝoj: 72
Lingvo: English
RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-01 03:29:12
I consider Esperanto to be a full language, and put it on an equal footing with English or French (obviously not according status by number of speakers!).
If someone spoke English in such a way that every word taken from French was pronounced as the the French word it came from, I might consider it interesting to hear for a little while, but on the whole I would consider it to be terrible English. And it would be. English changed the pronunciation and/or spelling of many of the words it borrowed from French; they may have come from French, but they are fully part of the English language, and follow English rules of speech. Someone wanting to return to the French pronunciation in order to spare themselves from having to learn the English pronunciation will lead to someone not speaking very good English.
Why would the case with Esperanto be any different?
Esperanto contains a LOT of words that are essentially English words with an -o at the end (or -a, or -e, etc.), and a different stress. Yet, I don't try and pronounce them as if they were English words, because they aren't; they are Esperanto words, and I pronounce them according to Esperanto's rules.
Of course, that's just me.
There's no law saying people can't pronounce Esperanto words any way they want.
If someone spoke English in such a way that every word taken from French was pronounced as the the French word it came from, I might consider it interesting to hear for a little while, but on the whole I would consider it to be terrible English. And it would be. English changed the pronunciation and/or spelling of many of the words it borrowed from French; they may have come from French, but they are fully part of the English language, and follow English rules of speech. Someone wanting to return to the French pronunciation in order to spare themselves from having to learn the English pronunciation will lead to someone not speaking very good English.
Why would the case with Esperanto be any different?
Esperanto contains a LOT of words that are essentially English words with an -o at the end (or -a, or -e, etc.), and a different stress. Yet, I don't try and pronounce them as if they were English words, because they aren't; they are Esperanto words, and I pronounce them according to Esperanto's rules.
Of course, that's just me.
There's no law saying people can't pronounce Esperanto words any way they want. 
Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-01 03:59:52
Of course, esperanto and french are different languages.
What i say, is that when some french-english words were esperantized, they could let to mistake because some are similare to eo words.
Imagine words of your own languages but pronunced a different way. It's not the same that a completely different word. It's more difficult because it's almost the same but different.
And after all, if these phonems jx, gx (even g) and s, c, (even sx) were the same and allophones, should you be disturbed ? As between [r], [ɾ], [ʀ] or [ʁ] ?
And happy new year, dears friends !
What i say, is that when some french-english words were esperantized, they could let to mistake because some are similare to eo words.
Imagine words of your own languages but pronunced a different way. It's not the same that a completely different word. It's more difficult because it's almost the same but different.
And after all, if these phonems jx, gx (even g) and s, c, (even sx) were the same and allophones, should you be disturbed ? As between [r], [ɾ], [ʀ] or [ʁ] ?
And happy new year, dears friends !
Vilinilo (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-01 05:57:17
I think you're just lazy, Frankouche 
I can imagine words of my own language that are pronounced in a different way. In my case, it's called Spanish
Portuguese and Spanish share a lot of common words. Not one or two, but quite a lot, I mean it. Yet, many of them have very different pronounciation. Examples:
Democracia (demokratio) - pt: /demokras'ia/; sp: /demokr'asja/
Exigir (postuli) - pt: /eziĵiĥ/; sp: /eksiĥir/
Juvenil (juna) - pt: /ĵuve'niŭ/; sp: /ĥube'nil/
Carro (aŭto): pt: /'kaĥo/; sp: /'karro/
Chave (ŝlosilo) - pt: /ŝ'avi/; sp: /ĉabe/
ktp...
Even though, when I'm speaking Spanish, although I'm not fluent in that laguage, I pronounce each word carefully as they should be in Spanish.
About the allophony, one may pronounce 'r' as [r], [ɾ], [ʀ] or [ʁ] because no other letter in Esperanto is associated with any of those phonemes, so each one of that options are unambiguous. That's not the case with ĝ × ĵ, ĉ × ŝ or ĥ × h though. I must admit that I, myself, have a hard time with that last pair, but rather than use the "anything goes" tactics, I put an effort to play the rules.
I can imagine words of my own language that are pronounced in a different way. In my case, it's called Spanish
Portuguese and Spanish share a lot of common words. Not one or two, but quite a lot, I mean it. Yet, many of them have very different pronounciation. Examples:
Democracia (demokratio) - pt: /demokras'ia/; sp: /demokr'asja/
Exigir (postuli) - pt: /eziĵiĥ/; sp: /eksiĥir/
Juvenil (juna) - pt: /ĵuve'niŭ/; sp: /ĥube'nil/
Carro (aŭto): pt: /'kaĥo/; sp: /'karro/
Chave (ŝlosilo) - pt: /ŝ'avi/; sp: /ĉabe/
ktp...
Even though, when I'm speaking Spanish, although I'm not fluent in that laguage, I pronounce each word carefully as they should be in Spanish.
About the allophony, one may pronounce 'r' as [r], [ɾ], [ʀ] or [ʁ] because no other letter in Esperanto is associated with any of those phonemes, so each one of that options are unambiguous. That's not the case with ĝ × ĵ, ĉ × ŝ or ĥ × h though. I must admit that I, myself, have a hard time with that last pair, but rather than use the "anything goes" tactics, I put an effort to play the rules.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-01 10:23:33
Vilinilo:I can imagine words of my own language that are pronounced in a different way. In my case, it's called SpanishOr Portuguese as spoken in portugal (I'm assuming you're a Brazilian portuguese speaker?)
Forgive me if I'm wrong Frankouche and Vilinilo, but I'm assuming that the amount of regional/dialect variation in French is no where near as much as in Portuguese? (e.g. I've heard /'karu/ (French R, Pt), /'kahu/ (Br) and /'kahxu/ (Br?) and also /por'tar/ (Pt) and /po'ta/ (Br), where as in French all I've heard is /oto/ and /oto/
)Maybe it's that some speakers, like some who speak English, Portuguese, Spanish and similar dialectally-diverse languages, depending on which dialect they speak, might notice or stress the importance in getting those little pronunciation nuances in Esperanto right, where as those who come from a largely homogenous dialect background which shares similarities to Esperanto might find getting the precise pronunciation harder or not find it as important.
Then again, maybe it's due to language exposure - an English person can easily differentiate between ĵ and ĝ because we have "ĝ" as "j" and we also have "ĵ" in some dialects in words like "azure", and we are somewhat exposed to Frech (maybe we watch too much Pink Panther!). On the other hand, in French for the most part, I'm guessing that there is only a "ĵ" sound, and as I think Frankouche said, in French where you'd only find "ĵ", in Esperanto you find "ĵ" and/or "ĝ".
Vilinilo (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-01 14:55:51
You guessed right, ceigered, I'm Brazilian and it's true that there several differences of pronounciatian between Brazilian and European Portuguese. Personally, I think it's very difficult to understand a Portuguese person speaking (unless he speaks very slow).
In Brazil there are quite a lot of different regional accents, but comunication is not an issue at all, only regional slangs may hinder communication because pronounciation, although not similar, varies only slightly from a region to other. Though we are capable of noticing a bigger spectrum of phonemes, which may help us beig more aware of the importance of the right pronounciation.
In Brazil there are quite a lot of different regional accents, but comunication is not an issue at all, only regional slangs may hinder communication because pronounciation, although not similar, varies only slightly from a region to other. Though we are capable of noticing a bigger spectrum of phonemes, which may help us beig more aware of the importance of the right pronounciation.
Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-03 00:19:43
Vilinilo:I think you're just lazy, FrankoucheCertainly ! That 's why languages evoluate
It's only human !
Vilinilo:I can imagine words of my own language that are pronounced in a different wayWe have a good exemple with english from which a lot of words comes from (old) french.
What is boring me is that i don't find the logic of the transcription of some french (and other languages) words in esperanto.
Aĉeti, ok all ŝ could become ĉ why not, why not tŝ ?
Ŝanĝi, ok all ĵ would be ĝ.
But ĵurnalo, why not dĵurnalo, ĝurnalo ? ŝanco, why not ĉanco, tŝanco ?
And ĥ, hooo that's not a good sound, difficult to prononce (for who ?), so let change it by k, t...
In english, when i find a "french" word there is a kind of logic and i know how to prononce it. But in esperanto, when i remember that the word is almost the same, i really don't find the rule and i have to remember exactly how it is written.
So you say, "it is that way, because it's like that", but it remembers me bad things because of the learning of my own language from which teatchers said exactly the same, because they didn't know the rule, and any logic which esperanto should represent.
Ok, i will stop now talking about this, because it's trolling. Certainly i will try to learn the good prononciation (which is ?), but i won't waste my time to say "scii", except in a "'say scii' competition", in which we would be certainly surprised
dimichxp (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-03 01:10:58
Frankouche:Probable ĉar Z mastris ne nur la francan kaj la anglan. Ekzemple en la rusa estas vortoj 'ŝanc' kaj 'ĵurnal'. Ili certe devenas de la franca kaj verŝajne Z opiniis ilin pli belaj/pli facile prononcataj.Vilinilo:I think you're just lazy, FrankoucheCertainly ! That 's why languages evoluate
It's only human !
Vilinilo:I can imagine words of my own language that are pronounced in a different wayWe have a good exemple with english from which a lot of words comes from (old) french.
What is boring me is that i don't find the logic of the transcription of some french (and other languages) words in esperanto.
Aĉeti, ok all ŝ could become ĉ why not, why not tŝ ?
Ŝanĝi, ok all ĵ would be ĝ.
But ĵurnalo, why not dĵurnalo, ĝurnalo ? ŝanco, why not ĉanco, tŝanco ?
And ĥ, hooo that's not a good sound, difficult to prononce (for who ?), so let change it by k, t...
In english, when i find a "french" word there is a kind of logic and i know how to prononce it. But in esperanto, when i remember that the word is almost the same, i really don't find the rule and i have to remember exactly how it is written.
Interalie, estas granda difirenco inter 'dĵ' kaj 'ĝ', 'tŝ' kaj 'ĉ' kaj ulo konanta tiujn afrikatojn prononcos 'dĵ' kaj 'tŝ' disigante ĉiun sonon.
Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-03 01:17:12
dimicĥp:Interalie, estas granda difirenco inter 'dĵ' kaj 'ĝ', 'tŝ' kaj 'ĉ' kaj ulo konanta tiujn afrikatojn prononcos 'dĵ' kaj 'tŝ' disigante ĉiun sonon.Hmmm ? Kia estas la malsimiloj inter dĵ, ĝ kaj tŝ, ĉ ? Mi vere ne scias...
arcxjo (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-03 03:23:36
Every person, regardless of the native language, can find some difficulties concerning Esperanto's pronunciation. Speakers from western Europe might have problems with 'dĵ', 'ĝ', 'tŝ', 'ĉ' and 'sc', while for the Slavs it's not difficult to see the difference, nor to articulate them.
On the other hand (e.g. in Poland), we tend to de-voice voiced consonants (like 'aput' instead of 'apud' or 'kfankam' instead of 'kvankam') and palatelise some of the consonants followed by 'i' (for example, 'si' becomes more similar to 'ŝi', 'ni' sounds like the Spanish 'ñ').
Morover, many Spanish speakers aren't accurate when pronuncing 'b' and 'v'; the Japanese along with a few other Eastern Asian nations do not distinguish 'r' from 'l' and so on.
So, what's the conclusion? Z took the words from here and there. As for an international auxilliary language it actually doesn't really matter from where and how much they differ from the original ones. It's IMHO only a question of aesthetics, which of course vary across cultures and societies. And I think that Z just attempted to achieve a neutral land between these various tongues.
Respect the Fundamento (unless you want another Ido), and PRACTICE your pronunciation!
Just like Vilinilo said - put an effort to play the rules. And don't become too lazy.
Amike.
On the other hand (e.g. in Poland), we tend to de-voice voiced consonants (like 'aput' instead of 'apud' or 'kfankam' instead of 'kvankam') and palatelise some of the consonants followed by 'i' (for example, 'si' becomes more similar to 'ŝi', 'ni' sounds like the Spanish 'ñ').
Morover, many Spanish speakers aren't accurate when pronuncing 'b' and 'v'; the Japanese along with a few other Eastern Asian nations do not distinguish 'r' from 'l' and so on.
What is boring me is that i don't find the logic of the transcription of some french (and other languages) words in esperanto.Neither do I. Why is there 'ĉasta' (undeniably slavic) if in the most slavic languages it's more like 'ĉista'? Why did Zamenhof create 'ekster' along with 'egzameno'? Why are there those strange vowel-clusters such as in 'scii', 'heroo' or 'panee'? Why do some of the adverbs end with '-aŭ' and other ones with '-e'? As far as I recall, that's why we have Ido. But Ido on the other hand became too Western-European, thus the majority stayed with E-o.
So, what's the conclusion? Z took the words from here and there. As for an international auxilliary language it actually doesn't really matter from where and how much they differ from the original ones. It's IMHO only a question of aesthetics, which of course vary across cultures and societies. And I think that Z just attempted to achieve a neutral land between these various tongues.
Respect the Fundamento (unless you want another Ido), and PRACTICE your pronunciation!
Just like Vilinilo said - put an effort to play the rules. And don't become too lazy. Amike.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-03 08:04:14
arcxjo:(unless you want another Ido)As a casual ido sympathiser, I'm more worried about Ididos
Frankouche:In english, when i find a "french" word there is a kind of logic and i know how to prononce it. But in esperanto, when i remember that the word is almost the same, i really don't find the rule and i have to remember exactly how it is written.Whoohoo! Another point for English!
Score: Angla = 4, Esperanto = 36.4233333333